Ep. 644 - Mastering the Shotgun: Insights from Will Primos and Anthony Matarese

In this episode, host Matt Harrison welcomes special guests Will Primos and Anthony Matarese, both renowned figures in the shooting and hunting community. The discussion kicks off with Will sharing his background, starting with his early love for hunting and fishing. He recounts his journey of learning to shoot, beginning at the age of six, and his experience as a marksmanship instructor. The episode promises to delve into various aspects of shooting, personal anecdotes, and insights on a collaborative project that Will and Anthony have been working on. Tune in for an engaging conversation filled with tips, experiences, and a shared passion for the outdoors.

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Creators & Guests

Host

Matt Harrison

DUPodcast Outdoor Host

What is Ducks Unlimited Podcast?

Ducks Unlimited Podcast is a constant discussion of all things waterfowl; from in-depth hunting tips and tactics, to waterfowl biology, research, science, and habitat updates. The DU Podcast is the go-to resource for waterfowl hunters and conservationists. Ducks Unlimited is the world's leader in wetlands conservation.

Matt Harrison: Hey everyone, and welcome to the Ducks Unlimited Podcast. I'm your host, Matt Harrison. And today we have two special guests with us that I am super duper excited to introduce and to also talk to you about because they have some really cool information about something that I love to do. And we're going to get off into that here in just a minute. But before we dive off into all the good stuff, I want to make an introduction to Mr. Will Primos and also Mr. Anthony Matarese. Fellas, how y'all doing? Hey, hey, Matt. Doing well. Thanks, Matt. Awesome. I'm extremely excited to have you two guys on the Ducks Limited podcast because we're going to talk a lot about shooting, a lot about your background, also about something that you guys have been working on together here in just a little bit. But before we dive off into all that, will you two guys kind of give our listeners a little bit of background about yourself and a little bit of history, kind of where you've came from and where you are now?

Will Primos: I guess I'll get started. This is Will talking. for me, I just grew up loving to hunt and fish like like a lot of young men, uh did and I started shooting a shotgun when I was six years old and I shot it I I've learned how i've figured it out. I shot it like I shot a bb gun And I was a marksmanship instructor in the air force. Um, and so I trained people how to shoot m16s and and 45s and 38s to Kind of protect themselves if they got shot down. I was in the air force. So um They that was my job is to train people how to use small arms And but I I was shooting skeet as a young man, and I I was okay at it I wasn't great at it, but I never received any instructions or anything and I shot skeet a lot Yeah, because I just loved to shoot You know, I, I kept going on through life. I started Primos, uh, the, the hunting company and hunting product company in 1976. And that was quite, quite a journey, uh, for almost 49 years now. Uh, I'm still involved with them. We were bought by private equity and, uh, company was traded publicly by, was part of a big conglomerate. And so, you know, life goes on. I finally had a little time on my hands and I knew that I was not a good shot with a shotgun, especially on crossers. Sure, if the ducks were coming down through the trees or coming… Go over a bank and flush them, you know, if I get the point right at them, they're done. You know, I'm good. But for a, you know, a duck that's 30 yards away or 40 yards away or 25 yards away and flying left to right or right to left. I just couldn't hit them. I learned not to shoot at them Um because I just I just couldn't do it. So I started shooting sporting clays to figure out you know how to do it and fell in love with it and then As I started studying and reading people's articles and joined the national association of sporting clay association and all that. Uh, I Anthony madder east I mean, you know I've been a part of this hunting industry and i've been to shows and people who see you on tv which we had a the truth about hunting on tv for so long and everybody knows you and they look up to you for bringing them all those special moments and They were signed they would line up for autographs and here I am Anthony Matarese, I mean, he's my hero. I mean, I'm 72 now, and I think Anthony's 40, but he's my hero. He is so talented and so accomplished. So he wrote this incredible book. It's a big coffee table-sized book. And it covers everything about sporting clays. And so he was going to be at a shoot that I was at in my hometown. He flew in to shoot one event and he won the event and he was going to leave. And I said, oh, my gosh. So I went to him and said, you know, would you sign my book? He said, well, I'd be glad to sign your book. I said, holy smoke. How does he know my name? Well, it turns out that his brother used Primo's wench duck calls and that started a little bit of a relationship. Next thing you know, Anthony emailed me and said, let's write a book together. He wanted to tell the story about how I learned to shoot. using sporting clays and that's that's that's it in a nutshell, but Just being around Great shooters and watching people like Anthony shoot you pick up a lot when you watch how efficient they are and how good they are I'm telling you you don't want to be the second one to shoot if Anthony's shooting you're good You're not gonna have anything to shoot at

Anthony Matarese: Anthony, I'll turn it over to you. So, yeah, I'll give you a little bit of my background. I'm Anthony Matarese Jr. I'm from Pennsville, New Jersey, which is to the southeast of Philadelphia, right along the Delaware Bay, kind of where the Delaware Bay turns into the Delaware River. My family was outfitters for goose hunting starting in 1950 in Smyrna, Delaware, kind of during the heyday of Canada goose hunting on the Eastern Flyway. That's how I kind of got into where I am today. My dad later opened a hunting preserve in Pennsville, New Jersey, which is where we still are. We then opened a sporting clay range to coincide with that. And I grew up there on a hunting preserve and a sporting clay range and got some great instruction at a young age. I started practicing sporting clays and hunting and then got good instruction. Pursued it was a very diligent student and learned and took a lot of instruction and fast forward. I've been a competitive shooter for this will be coming into 2025 will be my 31st year of competitive shooting. I won the world championship twice. I won the US Open four times. I won the national championship. I spend most of my time on the range teaching shooting. And when I'm not teaching shooting, I have four kids. I'm married, have four kids, and get them out in the field hunting. And in the summertime, I spend some time running a charter boat, offshore fishing for tuna and marlin, et cetera. So I live a outdoor adventure-filled life, from hunting to clay target shooting, to teaching shooting, to offshore fishing. in my free time, spend time with my family, and that's about it.

Matt Harrison: That is awesome.

Will Primos: Yeah, let me add to that about Anthony there. There's nothing that I have seen that Anthony tries to do that he doesn't try do as good as anybody can do it. He is a personality, he is focused. I mean, he has a finance degree. I mean, he went to college and he's accomplished and when he puts his mind to something he works his fanny off until he figures it out and it's one thing to learn to shoot and be able to shoot well but then you get into competition and you're shooting some crazy targets that a bird might not fly like but you've got to be able to put those Little water BBs out there in front of it to run into it to break it Anthony's pretty accomplished at that and because he teaches every day he he understands more about people and their their resistance to understanding certain things he'll say to us we knows how to talk to him and how to get then open them open them up and And allow them to use a shotgun and that's why we came together and wrote the book straight shooting for hunters and he asked me to join because they want to tell the story about me learning to shoot better by shooting sporting clays. And it's amazing you know people go hunting and the final season comes around and then picked up a shotgun since they put it up the last year and then mighty got to shoot. a box, two boxes of shells in the field the last year. Now they're going to try again. Gosh, shooting clay targets will teach you so much. That's the journey. I'm still on that journey. I think Anthony will tell you, he's still on that journey.

Matt Harrison: We all are It's been a lot of fun and I I truly love to shoot no doubt Well, you kind of gave us a little bit of story about how you guys met But if y'all don't mind tell a little bit more in depth, like is that something? That was just by coincidence that, you know, Mr. Will, you had him sign a book, or was this something that y'all kind of had planned, like, hey, I would like to partner up with somebody to write a book, or was this just kind of… Oh, no, no, no, no.

Will Primos: It was totally coincidence. I went to him at Providence Hill Sporting Club here, where this big event was, and he came in to shoot in the, what's called a FITASC event, which is the French style of shooting with a low gun. And so I took my book to him and I bought some more books for my friends and told him my story about how much his book had meant to me and how I had digested his book and I'd written 92 pages of cliff notes from his book and I referred to him when I was on the range. And I guess he just got to thinking, what a neat story. So, uh, we, he asked me to get with him and I went to New Jersey and, uh, several trips up there with him and took some lessons from him. And, and, um, it was, it was a wonderful experience. I feel very honored, uh, to have been able to do that.

Anthony Matarese: Yeah, so, you know, I'll chime in a little bit. I mean, I just feel like I've been around hunting my entire life, you know, having started hunting as a young kid and been around people that, you know, my family were outfitters, taking people goose hunting, you know, in the 1950s. Until 1990, they closed their operation when the goose season on Atlantic Flyway actually shut down. And then around 1980, we had started a hunting preserve for upland birds and sporting clays, et cetera. So my family's been around hunting forever. So we've seen people hunting forever. I take family, friends, et cetera. And I just feel like there was a need for a book about teaching people to be better in the field. I mean, I've been shooting a shotgun in the field since I was six years old. And then I learned to shoot a shotgun at the sporting clays at the very highest level. And there's a lot of things that people in the field don't necessarily know because no one has taught them. And we see those struggles every day if people come into a hunting preserve and, you know, not shooting as well as they would like to, and not killing as many birds as they should, or taking a lot more shells to do so, or taking friends and, you know, taking friends out duck hunting and telling them, all right, get ready, and we'll give them, this is your shot. shoot, shoot, shoot," and then I kill the bird after they shot one too late. They don't get it. They don't know what to do. They don't practice enough. They don't know the things to practice at their house, and they're missing an opportunity to be better. I thought that when Will told me his story, it was like, okay, if this guy who's been the face of hunting, you know, if someone was gonna pick someone to be the face of hunting, you know, name someone recognizable in the hunting space over the last 30 years, you know, they're most likely to pick Will Primos, you know, for what he's, all the stuff he's done with on TV, etc. And if this guy is walking up to me and telling me how much that I changed, you know, the book is meant to him to change his understanding of shooting a shotgun, then why not allow him to tell the story to hunters all across America that can relate to him, right? You know, they're less likely to relate to me, right? I'm a professional sporting clay shooter. So if I tell you, that you need to learn these things about shooting a shotgun. A lot of hunters invariably have their guard up a little bit. I'm a hunter, I'm not a sporting clay shooter. Well, Will Premo is a hunter, okay, of all different species, ducks, turkeys, deer, et cetera. And he's the guy that came to me and said how much he learned about shooting a shotgun. So I said, well, there's a lot of people that need to hear your story because you're the perfect guy to deliver the message. And let's teach them to be better in the field. And it's going to help everyone. They're going to have more fun. They're going to enjoy themselves. They're going to be able to teach their kids or their friends what to do. It's not rocket science, it's just some sound fundamentals and principles and then some ideas of encouraging people to do a little bit of practice and get out and do some shooting. You can't get done duck hunting in January and pull your gun out next October and expect expect to really be that good at anything, right? There's no discipline. If you were a carpenter that used your hammer to bang in 200 nails from October till February 1st, you wouldn't be a very good carpenter. You know that's the equivalent of shooting two hundred shots out of your shotgun during hunting season. You're not gonna be as good as you're capable of being so we wrote a book you know we encourage you to practice your gun mount at your house and get your gun out and put your hunting code on and learn what gun mount should be like and stance should be like and do that a little bit in the off season. If you're in a place where you can get to a clay target range, do some clay target shooting, reading the book and knowing what to do and get out there and do that. We put a premise through the book that, you know, anything that you're doing, you know, try to do it the best that you're capable of. So if you can get one day of practice before next duck season, get one day of practice. Maybe that's more than you got last year. If you can't get any, practice your gun mount the way we explained it to you at your house and get ready, you know, so that when someone tells you, hey, take the shot, you can get the gun mounted quick enough to take that shot or practice mounting that gun out of your layout blind to be ready for that. So that's kind of how we met was kind of just with those ideas kind of in mind that We'd like to deliver a message to hunters across all different hunting disciplines, whether it's upland birds or waterfowl or turkey hunting, and be able to help them be more successful in the field.

Will Primos: That's awesome. It's incredible. Anthony talked about using your eyes. Give me a lesson. He says, do you see the clay? I said, yeah. He says, no, no, no. What do you see on that clay? Do you see a spot? Do you see a shadow? Do you see a shiny spot? He wants your eyes to be used that well. So when you're shooting at a pheasant, you're looking at the ring on the neck. You you you're that that your hands your your your eyes tell your brain your hands where to take the shotgun But you never look at the shotgun. It's like a fuzzy so it's like a fuzzy thing in your peripheral vision and it it's it's a whole lot like uh, Like driving a car. You don't look at the hood. It's a great analogy that anthony gives, uh You don't look at the hood of the car when you're going down the road. You're looking where you're going, but you see the hood in your peripheral vision.

Matt Harrison: Wow. And that's a great point. I've never thought about it like that because shooting is one of those deals, you know, that it takes practice, you know, and repetition and getting that. what's comfortable you you know you hear some people that say they shoot with both eyes open one eye open and you know everybody kind of has their own way to do it but there is a correct way you know there's a way that's you know clearly Anthony's figured it out being a world champion as many times as he has but that's cool the analogy used because I've never really thought about it that way but just I mean just that in itself just that little bit of information you know may help may help some of the listeners listening to to this episode and Now I want to talk a little bit more about the book. So the book side of things, is this a book that the listeners can expect more of the tactic side, more of the mental side, a little bit of both? Can y'all both dive in a little bit about what it entails inside the book that may help a person that's shooting a shotgun regularly?

Anthony Matarese: You going to take that, Anthony? Go ahead and start with that, Will, and then I'll fill it in.

Will Primos: Well, you know you you start out, uh with the book, you know, we we kind of talk about in one of the chapters What is good shooting, you know kind of define that and then there are basics of shotgun shooting. So For me when i'm on the clay range And I'm shooting with somebody might be somebody I never shot before and I shoot and he goes you were behind it I don't want the guy To tell me I was behind it. I I want to I want him to leave me alone for a minute Let me think about the fundamentals. Let me think about the the basics. What did I what did I not do? Right that it caused me to be behind it. So If somebody says you're behind it, they're always trying to qualify or quantify lead. Anthony asked me one time, I shot this target and I just broke it really well and shot it again, broke it, shot it again and broke it. And he goes, how much lead you giving it? And I go, I don't know. He says, good answer. And so that's kind of the, that's the concept. of shooting a shotgun if you if you do the fundamentals right And there's different there's different techniques that you can use depending on the angle distance and speed of the bird Be it pull away or maintain lead There's there's there's different ones you can learn but it's just amazing how When you begin to think about these fundamentals, so the book goes into the fundamentals and uh It and it and we we talk about eye dominance pretty early on Because somebody who's shooting a shotgun Right-handed and they're left eye dominant. Let's say they're Almost 100 left eye dominant. They're gonna have a real hard time because their brain is not understanding They're pointing the gun where the brain is telling them to but that's not where the that's not where it is. You gotta he's that person is gonna have to possibly Obscure that one eye a little bit to make his other eye take over and anthie can talk more in depth about this Or he's gonna have to close his eye, which is not ideal by any means or he's gonna have to learn to shoot off the other shoulder um and Understanding that, especially when you're young, a younger person can switch shoulders because of eye dominance issue much easier than an old guy like me. So I'm real lucky that I'm right eye dominant and right handed. But we go into gun mount and we go into how to use your eyes and what you're looking for, what you're trying to see or not see, I should say. And then we break it down into different types of hunting, whether it be doves or turkeys or waterfowl. And we even have a little bit, a chapter on deer. I'm a big archery shooter. I just was devout archery hunter for a long, long time, 50 years. We talk about some of that in there. Then we get into it after we get all that laid out. We talk about practicing with clay targets and what you're trying to learn from the practice. Then we talk about taking kids and getting them started right. That is really a blast. I recently met a lady, Uh, out of Nashville, Tennessee, I was working on a little small business deal on a piece of property with her. And, um, her, she was telling me her son's 11 years old and he's obsessed. Nobody in the family hunts and he's obsessed with camouflage and hunting and she wants to get him a bow. What should she do? And I said, Oh gosh. Well, first off we want to establish if he's right or left eye dominant But you know I tried to help her with that and gave her The the right the right matthews bow that I would want him to start with so he could grow into it But anyway, there's so much to it, but it's simple if you have not been taught or told And realized what people like anthony have learned from a lifetime of doing it. I mean anthony, I think has been teaching since he was 15 years old. He's been teaching other adults how to shoot. Um, so he's got a lot of experience with understanding and watching people what they do. He can he can watch me shoot and tell me um So much about what I did before I even know it the book looks pretty Simple but comprehensive in an organized manner carrie luft was our editor who came and sat with us and worked with us and recorded sessions with me and anthony And carrie's a master class shooter himself. He's from chicago And he teaches, he's a Anthony Matariz approved instructor. So we had three great people putting together and putting the right information there so someone can read this book and get started on the right foot.

Anthony Matarese: Yeah, Matt, I'll give you a, you know, kind of just a short overview, you know, so the book's super comprehensive, it has All the fundamentals of shooting, covering from stance to gun mount to eye dominance, everything that you need to be doing, different ways of generating leads and methods, you know, maintain lead, pull away, swing through, kind of when to do what and understanding that, how to practice and what to do, what you can do at your house, what can you can do if you can get to a clay target range. And then it has probably one of my favorite parts of it, which is because I spent my whole life teaching fundamentals and technique of shooting, which is really what's going to make you a great shot. It's just not as interesting to me because I spent every day of my life doing that. We have a part of the book called Fieldcraft. Which is essentially how to be a better hunter especially if you know i think the thing is cool about it's how to be a better hunter if you didn't have. The experience in the time to learn those lessons on your own you know so the idea where we came up with the field craft part was i said well. Write down your list of things you think everybody should know about how to be better in the field waterfowl hunting, not related to shooting the shotgun. Assuming you're either an excellent shot or a terrible shot, whatever you want to say. But what can you do better if you were an excellent shot or were you a terrible shot that could make you more successful? Whether you're hunting turkey, deer, upland birds, waterfowl, whatever it is. And then I came up with my list of what I've learned over 35 years in the field. hunting different species to say, these things you need to be paying attention to and understand, and we talk about that. So for example, I'll give one for me. I love the waterfowl hunt. I love the… The thing for me that's the most exciting about waterfowl hunting is when you truly trick a bird and he's in your face landing, right? You know the thing that i talk about in field craft is properly hiding and spending all the time to build a blind brush a blind properly hide and not be seen you know because that's the thing that i. hate the most, you know, is hunting with birds over top of you and flaring, you know, and I can kill them because I can shoot a long way, right? But that's not what I want to do, right? You know, I want them to be close so the other people with me can kill them. And, you know, so that's what the field craft part of the book is about, is things you could do, whether at whatever skill level of a shooter you are, They can make you better right like the things that stick out to you from me from will that. Of all of our years of experience things that matter things that you know opportunities are limited sometimes right you know you get out your duck hunting not every day is the best day not every day you know is the ideal condition so what can you do on those days. a large part of the book is teaching you to be more proficient with your shotgun and learn to be a better shooter, but what else can you do, right? What else can you do to maximize your opportunities on that day? Not everybody reading the book or not everybody listening to the podcast has the best spot or gets the most opportunities or the weather's not right on the day that they're off work and it's sunny and the wind's not blowing and they're going duck hunting. capitalizing on the limited number of opportunities you have is really important. And that's kind of one of the goals of when we wrote the book is to get you there from a technique and fundamental standpoint of shooting, teach you everything you need to know about shooting, but also teach you some things that, you know, what have I learned in 35 years of being out deer hunting or duck hunting or waterfowl hunting, you know, upland hunting to capitalize on opportunities.

Matt Harrison: So, Mr. Will, you talked about this just a second ago, about the age of, you know, at what time it kind of is, it's a good time to apply these tips and tricks that you can learn. So, can y'all both talk about, like, at what age is it good for somebody to really start practicing the fundamentals? You know, at what, I feel like there is an age that, you know, you Not any time spent outside with a young child is wasted, but at what time can you really start implementing the right ways to go about shooting? What number would you say is a good age for somebody to get started in the shooting?

Will Primos: Yeah, I don't, I'm not dancing things like me. I don't think you can put an age on it because one kid may be mature enough, uh, to handle a shotgun and responsible enough at, at six years old and another one's not. I know, Anthony, you guys started real early with a 410, didn't you? Side by side?

Anthony Matarese: Yes, I had a 410 side by side, and I was a fairly big kid. I was six years old and shot that a little bit. I can't remember shooting it a lot. I remember shooting a goose, resting it over the front of the duck fly, shooting a goose on the water with it at six years old. Actually, before they told me to shoot, because they were waiting for the rest of the flock to come in. But, you know, so size and maturity is the biggest thing, right? You got to have enough strength. So I have a daughter who's 10. She can shoot a handful of shots with a 28-gauge semi-auto, you know, and it's already with a short stock and a short barrel. I have a daughter who's 7. She can shoot a couple of shots with a 28-gauge semi-auto with a short stock and a short barrel. My 7-year-old, when she's 10, is going to be way ahead of where my ten-year-old is now in terms of size and strength and it's also desire right so my ten-year-old is she could take it or leave it you know so we'll shoot a little bit if she doesn't want to do it we don't do it right you know we went deer hunting today we went deer hunting two days ago and And my seven-year-old was the one that was going to shoot, right? So it's opening week of buck week for us in New Jersey. I had her practice with a 28-gauge with target loads in it. And then we're going to shoot the deer with a 20-gauge with buckshot, and I had a shoulder pad on her. So it was going to kick a little bit more, but we practiced with the lighter gun. But I got the right equipment, and I obviously know what I'm doing. But my 10-year-old goes, no, let Amelia shoot. Amelia is the seven-year-old. So she's obviously not that concerned about being the one that's the shooter. you know, when Amelia is 10 and my next daughter is seven, Amelia, the 10 year, she's going to want to shoot. She's got, she's got a little bit more desire. She's not going to easily let her sister pass up to be the one that shoots the deer. So it's a little bit desire. It's a little bit size. It's a little bit maturity. You know, you got to have the right equipment. Um, It doesn't have to be expensive equipment, but it's got to be the right length stock and the right gauge and the right spec loads that don't get beat up. So 10 is kind of like a safe number, if you wanted to say how old should my son or daughter be 10. But there's kids that are plenty ready to shoot at seven and eight years old, depending on their size and maturity, if you have the right equipment for them. But that's a big thing you know you can't scare him off you can't get beat up my brother was eight years old shooting in national level competitions you know a real competition registered targets and. Shooting, you know 100 birds and regular 100 or 200 birds in a day and regular shooting competition, but he was a big kid he had the right equipment and He kind of grew up around it right, you know, so it's environment and culture as well. So I A lot of factors go into it but somewhere from 7 to 12, you know, really depending on size and maturity and desire And matt you you start them out right and you tell them there's something to foot position.

Will Primos: There's something to gun mount. There's something to How do you use your eyes? um, and It all begins to come together so much easier. I got a friend that came to me recently. His son was young and he said, I want to buy him a gun he can grow with, he can get started with. And so we started him out shooting and we took the sights off of a BB gun and had him point that BB gun at close range and learn to point the gun. We're trying to teach him about shotgun stuff. And after about six months, he was ready to move to a 4'10". Uh, and we made sure that he understood, look at the target. Don't look at the, your, your, your, your hand and eyes and brain are going to tell you where you're pointing to. And it's like pointing your, pointing your finger at something. When you point your five, five, across the room from you and I point my finger at your eye, I'm not looking at my finger. I'm looking at your eye. And that's kind of how you go about pointing a shotgun. So when you learn the basics early on, it helps tremendously. Now, recently a friend of mine called me. And said she had just bought her daddy. He's my age. Uh, and he's a retired CPA and she wanted to take him out to sporting clay range. Would I take him out there? I says, well, I'm not a qualified instructor, but I know enough to have him be, you know, proficient at a few shots and enjoy himself. So she came with us and she's 40 years old. She brought her 28 gauge over and under that she had won at a DU banquet and He was there with his new 12-gauge shotgun to over and under. And to let them see the target and explain to him getting out he walked up there and stood there says no Move around so that you can swing the gun. He's right-handed swing the gun Toward your left. You're going to be restricted going back to the right So you want to be sure you open yourself up a little bit because that target is going to be coming on your right side so understanding that um, and then i'd explain to him about gun man. So I had him make sure guns unloaded and I made him mount the gun. I checked that he was gun fitting well enough for him to be able to not have that be a problem. And then, you know, he just put the tar, put the gun on the, on the, on the target. I made sure he look at the target and just move with the targets coming at you, moving to the right. And when he pulled that trigger and smoked that target, he said, Holy smokes. And I said, now, the next thing I want you to do, I want your eyes to look out beyond the target. And this is something Anthony. taught me, and several other instructors have mentioned it as well. But you look, your eyes can come back into focus a whole lot faster. I forget what the number is, but it's many thousands of times faster than your eyes can go out to focus. So if you're over upland, you're hunting and your dogs are pointing, you're hunting upland birds, be it quail or pheasant or whatever, you don't want to look down where the pheasants are. You want to look out beyond that so your eyes can come back and grab that flash and then tell your hands where to take that gun. Your eyes tell your hands where to take that gun. And so all of these are the basics that a young person, be they six years old, seven years old, eight years old, 12 years old, need to learn. And people like me, who I've been, for me, somebody told me early on, That i'm going dove on they said well you got to shoot out in front of the dove So that's what I did. I put that I pointed that gun out in front of that dove and every once in a while I'd put it at the right place and they'd run into it But I couldn't be consistent because I had no way of duplicating what I was doing And I shot that way my whole life um, and so learning Through sporting clays, how to be a better shotgun is a real gift to a sportsman. Wow.

Matt Harrison: Especially a young one. And what's crazy is how important all the little things that are so overlooked play a major role. For example, how you said the mount, you go ask a lot of hunters that spend a lot of time in the woods, They don't even really think about the mount. And I'm as guilty as anybody. You know, you don't really take the time in learning the correct way to mount a shotgun or shoot a rifle. You know, all those little bitty things that you've mentioned all add up to be a pretty big factor in shooting.

Will Primos: And that mount has something to do with fit. I don't think, and I believe Anthony will probably agree, That fit early on right off the bat. It's not the most important because you can adapt and you can do certain things to Get it close enough But once you really learn to shoot and your in your mount gets more and more precise and more and more consistent You want that gun when you mount it? Pointing right where it right where your eyes supposed to be looking at what your eyes looking at um Anthony, you might want to tell them the story about realizing your barrel was bent.

Anthony Matarese: Yeah, so I mean, getting to his point for a second, gun mount is huge. I think gun mount is the variable that holds a lot of people back, whether it's upland bird hunting or waterfowl hunting. those two disciplines, upland bird and waterfowl, you need a good gun mount. So you need to be able to get your hands moving together, the gun's gotta get in the pocket of your shoulder, your head's gotta be on the stock, your eye's in line with the gun, you gotta be able to do that instantly. quickly at times and without thinking about it, right? You shouldn't be mounting the gun and then looking down the barrel to see if your eye is in line with the barrel. That's not a good gun mount. A good gun mount means you can get your eye in line with the barrel without thinking about it and without checking it, to still be able to look downrange at the target or the bird that you're shooting at. So gun mount is huge. Gun mount is the variable that if I was gonna give someone a crash course on how to be a better hunter next week, we would spend the whole time working on proper mount, proper stance, and how to look at the duck or the dove or the whatever the target is that you're shooting at. Your hands and eyes learn to work together if you can trust your hands and eyes, but that's assuming that gun mount is correct, meaning that your brain kind of has a consistent impact point. So if your gun mount is incorrect, it's the equivalent of your rifle not being sighted in. So if your gun mount is correct, the gun goes where it's supposed to go, it goes where you think it goes.

Will Primos: So I think, Anthony, I think what you just said, all the listeners can relate to that. What you just said was not having a good gun mount is having a rifle that's not zeroed in. Right.

Anthony Matarese: So if your rifle's not zeroed in, you can make a good shot and miss. If you don't have a good gun mount, you can make a good shot and miss. So you sight your rifle in before the opening day of deer season. You sight your rifle in before you go hunting for whatever it is that you're hunting with with your rifle. So Your gun mount is the equivalent of sighting in your rifle, but people go to the dove field, or they go to the duck marsh, or they go to the wood duck hole, or they go to the upland bird hunt, or the quail hunt, and they haven't practiced their gun mount. So they haven't sighted in their gun, because you need to be able to do that without thinking about it. So, if you can do that without thinking about it, you can do that consistently, that's the equivalent of sighting in your rifle, sighting in your deer gun. And if you don't do that with your shotgun, then it's the equivalent of going to your deer blind and mounting the gun to fire at that buck and hoping the gun's gonna go to the right spot. people mount their gun in the field, when a dove comes by, they close their eye or they look down at the bees and they see if things are lined up, then they try to shoot the bird. Well, that's the equivalent of sighting in your rifle, you know, once a deer comes out into the field. Okay, it's too late. It's the wrong time. You needed to get this done before the season, whether it's at your house or on a clay target range, or ideally both. You know, so Will mentions a time about my, you know, I had, I had, uh, had a problem with my barrel cause I had shot the same barrel for so long. I had actually stripped the threads out on the chokes and, um, I bought a used barrel cause it was the same barrel configuration I had been using. And the beginning of the year, I didn't shoot well and I practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced. And, uh, You know, by middle of the season, I was shooting fine and I won the US Open that year. And then at the end of the year, I was getting a new stock built, a custom stock. And we patterned my gun, my old gun, when we originally shot it on a board, just to compare the new gun to the old gun with a new stock. The old gun shot a little bit low, and I would never want my gun to shoot low. I generally pattern my gun to shoot about 50-50 to 60-40, meaning 60% of the pattern above where you're shooting, 40% below where you're shooting at. And that's because if you can put a percentage of the pattern high, then you can see a little better. You know, you can shoot the You know, you shoot the feet of a duck and hit it in the head, you know, essentially. Or you shoot the middle of the chest of the duck and hit it in the head. Or you shoot the bottom edge of the clay and still hit it. So you can see your visibility is a little better if your gun shoots slightly high. And when we patterned my gun to compare the two, my gun had shot 60% low. Okay. And it was like, well, that's alarming. You know what the hell happened? You know, this is the guy I just won a big championship with that summer. So the guy that was my stock maker building a custom stock, he's like, let me shoot it like myself. Let me shoot it off like a bench rest. Just we'll see what's going on and make sure it's not the barrel. Well, the barrel was bent. Okay. And the barrel had shot I had shot low, but I had shot it through the years, through the year, you know, only the beginning of the year I struggled, but I practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced. And, you know, in the middle of July, I won the US Open with it. You know, I started with the gun in January. So my brain learned between January and July. Because I had consistency, that's why gun mount matters, that my point of impact was a little low, and I never realized that at all, but my brain did. My brain figured that out. You know, but that goes back to the example of, you know, if your deer rifle shot slightly low, then you, you shoot slightly high and you hit where you're supposed to go as long as it's consistent. You know, so my brain figured it out and that's, that's a part of understanding shooting that once you have consistency and you learn to watch the, watch the clay or watch the duck and keep your eye on target, uh, your brains and your hands and your eyes can figure out a lot of stuff if we have consistency.

Will Primos: Yeah. Uh, Matt, I was, when I was with Anthony, he, he was talking to me and he goes, uh, you do realize that you have a rear sight on that shotgun. And I went, well, you know, somebody said something about that, but I don't remember exactly what they said. And he goes, yeah, your rear sight is your eye. And I went, oh yeah. And then, you know, you hear something, you have to hear something. Somebody idiot like me has to hear it quite a few times before he gets beat in their head. But Anthony really pounded it home to me because that mount puts that rear sight where it needs to be to see the target. So you know that the gun's pointing in the right direction without you looking at the gun.

Anthony Matarese: Correct, Anthony? Yeah, correct. Your eyes, your rear sight. So when you're thinking of alignment, You have a reference to the front of the gun and your eye is the rear sight. So if you move your eye high on the gun because you didn't mount correctly, you shoot over the target. If you move your eye to the right of the barrel, if you move your eye to the right of the barrel, you're going to shoot left of the target. Well, right, rather. So if you have your eye in the wrong spot because your gun mount's incorrect, it's like having your iron sights, you know, out of whack. Yeah.

Will Primos: So, you know, as you, Anthony talks about practicing the mount at home. So what he had me do was, you know, talk to me about it. He says, well, you know, practice that mount and get that mount. And I don't, I believe in a book, Anthony says, takes like 20,000 times to get your gun mount perfect. Uh, so in other words, you gotta practice it. You gotta, it's gotta be, it's gotta be you. And, um, you, I practice at home, still do occasionally, um, on a mirror. And I look in the mirror and my right eye is what I'm going to mount my gun in the mirror. So I see my right eye in the mirror and I mount my gun to that right eye. And if you want to check it, which I don't want to do anymore, but if you want to check it, you close your left eye and you look down the rib of the barrel to see if you're pointing the gun at your right eye. Is that correct, Anthony?

Anthony Matarese: Yeah. I mean, when you're learning the amount of shotgun, you know, assuming you're shooting with both eyes open, if you're right-handed and right-eyed dominant, or left-handed and left-eyed dominant, you can get away with shooting a shotgun both eyes open if you're some form of center dominance, but it can become a complicated situation, and if you're cross-dominant, right-handed, left-eyed dominant, or right-handed, center dominant, you might need to just shut your off-eye to keep the process simple, and you can become a great shooter shooting that way, and you might have a lot better success than you might have a lot better success than shooting cross-dominant, meaning shooting right-handed with your left eye open. There's people doing that, you know, because their buddy said, oh, I should shoot with two eyes, you know, and they're cross-dominant, but no one told them they were cross-dominant. So you need to know your eye dominance.

Will Primos: So explain to him what you mean by cross dominant.

Anthony Matarese: So if you're right handed and your left eye dominant, your brain is communicating with your left eye. So if you leave both eyes open, it's generally not going to be successful. If you see someone mounting the gun and they roll their head off to the side all the time and you roll their head across the stock, they're probably trying to see with their left eye. But even trying to see with their left eye, they don't have alignment. They don't have proper alignment of their eye in line with the gun. Really shooting a shotgun, if we want to be able to look at the target, the duck, the dove, the clay, we want our right eye in line with the gun. Both eyes would be open ideally, but we get our communication from our right eye if we're right eye dominant or our left eye if we're shooting left handed and left eye dominant. Eye dominance is a real thing. We've got to understand if you should be shooting with both eyes open or one eye. If you're trying to win a national championship in clay shooting, you need to make every attempt to learn to shoot with both eyes open. And sometimes switching shoulders is important, et cetera. If you're trying to be a more proficient shooter and kill more doves and more ducks and more upland birds, then sometimes the most practical solution is closing your whatever the off eye is, if you're right-handed, closing your left eye, if need be, considering items. But you don't want to be closing it if you don't need to. So that's why. understanding eye dominance is important we go through a pointing test in the book of you know if you point at an object and you shut your eye you know if you point your right finger at an object and you shut your left eye and it doesn't move at all then you were using only your right eye okay if you point your left finger at an object and you shut your left and it doesn't move at all, then you're only using your right eye, so you'd be 100% right eye dominant. In the test the same way, if you point your left finger and close your right eye, and there's a massive movement, then you're strong right eye dominant. If you point your left finger at an object or your right finger at an object, you shut your right eye. there's no movement at all then you're only using your left eye you know there's some i dominance test online to kind of walk you through it get on the internet google it and i doctored the test and i doctor does is unfortunately not accurate ok no matter how good your doctor is there most of them are using what's called an aperture test which an aperture test has you put a hole in a piece of paper, put your hands up and make a triangle and bring it back to one eye or the other, that test only tells you which eye is 51% dominant or more. And it doesn't account for any degrees of central dominance or center dominance, which is where at least 50% of the population of people fall. So the test that your eye doctor does, because eye dominance doesn't really matter to an eye doctor because there's nothing else that you do in life that eye dominance matters except shooting and maybe playing pool on a pool table, it's not really a big deal for an eye doctor. So they noted on your chart, right eye dominant, left eye dominant, but most eye doctors know very, very little about eye dominance. So you need a degree of dominance test. If you're 80% right eye dominant, then you could probably shoot right-handed. So that's gonna base on that shift that we're talking about. If you point one finger, point the other finger, and see how far your finger moves. There's some work by a guy named Dr. Colo, Dr. Richard Colo, I've kind of been instrumental in working with him since he got into, he's a shooter and an eye doctor, and we've really developed a system for understanding eye dominance better. You can get online and Google him and look at his tests, et cetera, and listen to podcasts and learn more and more about it if you really need help on eye dominance. And it's something that if you think you have confusion there, you need help and you need to learn more. So back to the bigger question, yeah, what you're doing with mounting your gun, if you mount your gun at your house and you're right-handed and you shut your left eye and you're right eye dominant, your right eye should be dead in line with the barrel. If it's not, then you have to practice your gun mount until you can get it in line with the barrel every time without thinking about it. I was just teaching my you know, teaching my seven-year-old daughter, you know, and we're just shooting at a still target, you know, getting ready for deer season. Like, you gotta get your eye in line with the gun because we're shooting a shotgun. It's not a scope. It's an iron sight. And if your eye's not in line with the gun or your head's too high or too low, you can put the bead on the target and still miss. Right. Because your, your rear sight is out of alignment. Okay. You know, we were shooting at a pumpkin with my seven year old daughter off of a bench rest for nonetheless. Okay. And I had told her, I'm like, just put the bead right on it, you know? And, uh, she kept shooting the very top of it off. You know, we were only like 15 yards, you know, she was barely hitting it. And, uh, She's not getting her head down level with the bead, her eyes way up. So she's looking down on the bead. The point impact of the gun is going higher than she thinks it is. So it's back to the equivalent of. Your gun's not sighted in, you know, your deer rifle's not sighted in and it's deer season, right? And that's your shoot stationary target. Now, yes, she's only seven, but she's got to understand how to get her eye in line with the bead, you know, or when you go to shooting, particularly moving targets, and you're not looking at the beads anymore, when you're shooting a moving target, you're going to be looking at the target and ignore the beads. The beads are in your peripheral vision. If you're shooting a stationary target, you're going to look more at the barrel. You're going to look at your beads and try to get alignment. But if you can't get alignment on a stationary target by having a good gun mount, then you're definitely not going to have it on a moving target when you had to mount the gun and take the shot. So it can get pretty complicated. The book does the best job we can to make that as simple as possible.

Will Primos: Yeah, and Matt, so, you know, the word center dominance, as you kept referring to, that just says you're center dominant. The right eye and the left eye both are Are getting the information to the brain, but your brain doesn't know which eye to use so it uses both of them So if it's doing that You're you're not sighted in so you have to learn to How to make one of your eyes which which shoulder you're going to shoot off of and become The eye that's going to see the target. Uh, otherwise your brain is having a hard time figuring out where the guns point correct avenue

Anthony Matarese: Yeah, that's correct. So a true case of center dominance is you're getting alignment from both eyes. So you can have some success, but there's a large probability that your pattern is not where you think it is. Your pattern is half on target, something like that. If you're shooting both eyes open, center dominant, and there's a multitude of solutions from keep practicing, Don't mount the gun directly in line with your shooting eye, let your brain learn the center of where the gun needs to be. Sometimes people will mount the gun where their nose is kind of more down the middle of the gun than their right eye. you know, that's arguably a solution. Sometimes I disagree, particularly for a hunter, I disagree with that because I don't think they're going to shoot enough to figure that out. Or you got to shut the eye, shut the eye and then you're using your right eye. But we don't want to be shutting the eye if we don't have to, right? You know, so that's the trick. You know, there's people out there listening to this podcast that are right-handed, shutting their left eye, and they shouldn't be shutting it. They're strong enough, right eye down, and they should be using both eyes. Because when you shut your eye, you're more likely to look down the barrel on aim. You know, if you keep both eyes open, it's easier to watch the target and not aim.

Matt Harrison: Wow. Well, all this information has been fascinating just to hear you guys kind of break it down. And I'm sure the book does it even more so than what we've kind of talked about here the past hour or so. But it has been such a pleasure to be able to hop on the podcast and talk about the book. Would you mind telling our listeners the name of the book and then also where they can find it?

Anthony Matarese: The name of the book is Straight Shooting for Hunters with Will Primos and Anthony Matariz. The easiest way to buy it is right on Amazon. Google Straight Shooting for Hunters. Put in my name or Anthony Matariz or Will Primos on Amazon. You can buy the paperback copy, an e-book. right there as well as an audio book on Amazon. And you can get that shipped right to your house, including shipping for $24.95 and a paperback book. We have a limited edition hardback book, which is available on my website. And my website is clayshootinginstruction.com. Clayshootinginstruction.com. That's a hardback limited edition book. And the book's been well received. We're really honored to be on the podcast with you guys here tonight. Big time. Yeah, big time. We've had some good support. Winchester Ammunition has sponsored the book. So when you get a company like Winchester Ammunition behind the book, obviously it speaks volumes of they wouldn't put their name with anything. And Onyx Maps has also sponsored the book. So they've been Uh, instrumental in helping us get this book out there. And, uh, we really appreciate you guys having us on. Yes, sir.

Will Primos: Thank you, Matt.

Matt Harrison: I can't thank you enough. Absolutely. Mr. Will. Thank you so much, Anthony. Thank you as well. And we also want to thank our podcast producer, Mr. Chris Isaac. And we would also like to thank our ducks a little bit of podcast listeners for tuning into this episode of the Delks and limited podcast. Y'all take care and God bless.